Comments on: the intentionally empty womb http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/ Am I Not a Woman and a Sister? Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:13:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Elizabeth http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9262 Elizabeth Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:20:29 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9262 The number of children a couple have is a personal decision. No where does the Church or it's inspired Prophets state the number of children that should be in a family. As far as being able to enter Heaven only if you've completed the marriage ordinance - the teaching is that in order to enter the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and have an"increase" which means having spirit offspring , one must enter the eternal marriage covenant. Which makes sense - there needs to be a male and a female to procreate, right? And it should be within a marriage union. Brittany, you are right on. So sorry to hear of your loss. The careers and accolades of this world will fade away, but your family can be forever. The number of children a couple have is a personal decision. No where does the Church or it’s inspired Prophets state the number of children that should be in a family. As far as being able to enter Heaven only if you’ve completed the marriage ordinance – the teaching is that in order to enter the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and have an”increase” which means having spirit offspring , one must enter the eternal marriage covenant. Which makes sense – there needs to be a male and a female to procreate, right? And it should be within a marriage union. Brittany, you are right on. So sorry to hear of your loss. The careers and accolades of this world will fade away, but your family can be forever.

]]> By: Krista http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9261 Krista Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:15:29 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9261 It is my personal opinion and belief that the number of children you have has no bearing on whether you reach the Celestial kingdom or not. You know what you can deal with personally, financially, spiritually. No one out there has the right to dictate your personal preference. Am I sinning for having "only" two kids (yep, you guessed it ... the least amount in any family in the ward)? If I am going to be damned for taking the best course for me and my family ... I can think of worse things I can do to kick start my descent into hell. It is my personal opinion and belief that the number of children you have has no bearing on whether you reach the Celestial kingdom or not.
You know what you can deal with personally, financially, spiritually. No one out there has the right to dictate your personal preference.
Am I sinning for having “only” two kids (yep, you guessed it … the least amount in any family in the ward)? If I am going to be damned for taking the best course for me and my family … I can think of worse things I can do to kick start my descent into hell.

]]> By: G http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9260 G Mon, 27 Oct 2008 03:21:54 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9260 aw thanks d'arcy for putting in your two cents here as well. a bit of my own struggle was going through a significant cognitive shift AFTER being married and becoming a mother. I wish I had known myself better before entering those stages... but for me it was going through those stages that opened the way for me. I admire your own journey and the courage it takes. aw thanks, angie. I wish we could have sat down and chatted face to fact too. It seemed somehow a guilty, secretive thing when among friends we would (occasionally) admit to ambivalence about having children. to just be able to talk about it with out the guilt, openly. would have been nice. thank you for sharing your own story, I am so glad that for many faithful they do what they know is best for them inspite of outside pressures. thanks, dr tump; yes, the idea of having a daughter and raising her in the church was also a problematic aspect of procreating for me as well. (somehow more than for a son, at the time.) thank you for sharing :) aw thanks d’arcy for putting in your two cents here as well.
a bit of my own struggle was going through a significant cognitive shift AFTER being married and becoming a mother. I wish I had known myself better before entering those stages… but for me it was going through those stages that opened the way for me.

I admire your own journey and the courage it takes.

aw thanks, angie. I wish we could have sat down and chatted face to fact too. It seemed somehow a guilty, secretive thing when among friends we would (occasionally) admit to ambivalence about having children.
to just be able to talk about it with out the guilt, openly. would have been nice. thank you for sharing your own story, I am so glad that for many faithful they do what they know is best for them inspite of outside pressures.

thanks, dr tump; yes, the idea of having a daughter and raising her in the church was also a problematic aspect of procreating for me as well. (somehow more than for a son, at the time.)
thank you for sharing :)

]]> By: Dr. Tump http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9259 Dr. Tump Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:22:22 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9259 G-I love the painting! at 31 and childless by choice I can relate to what you've written. When I honestly evaluate myself I can say that my only desire to have children stems from guilt and pressure from Mormon society and teachings. I refuse to have children out of guilt! I always read these posts with fascination and relief when I find others who feel like I do. I like kids, and really enjoy my nieces and nephews; but I have some real fears about how I would adapt to parenthood. I also struggle with how I would raise a child in the framework of Mormonism-- especially a daughter. As I progress through my stages of faith I really worry about the traditional paradigms this would restrict them with Thanks for this thoughtful piece and the chance to ponder on this G-I love the painting!
at 31 and childless by choice I can relate to what you’ve written. When I honestly evaluate myself I can say that my only desire to have children stems from guilt and pressure from Mormon society and teachings. I refuse to have children out of guilt! I always read these posts with fascination and relief when I find others who feel like I do. I like kids, and really enjoy my nieces and nephews; but I have some real fears about how I would adapt to parenthood. I also struggle with how I would raise a child in the framework of Mormonism– especially a daughter. As I progress through my stages of faith I really worry about the traditional paradigms this would restrict them with
Thanks for this thoughtful piece and the chance to ponder on this

]]> By: Angie http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9258 Angie Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:07:42 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9258 "their perfect family set - wife with big bangs, children, minivan, hot dinner." One more thing - I thought this statement was so hilarious! “their perfect family set – wife with big bangs, children, minivan, hot dinner.”

One more thing – I thought this statement was so hilarious!

]]> By: Angie http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9257 Angie Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:06:09 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9257 G, I thought about you and this post all day today. I wish that we were next door neighbors, and that we could sit down and talk together about this...because I feel exactly the same way that you do about having children. So many of your phrases were exactly what I think too. I have two responses to what you wrote in your last paragraph: "faith and family planning seemed so heavily connected" - I don't feel this way, because my physical, sexual identity is so personal and precious to me. I have a phrase that runs around in my thoughts regarding this: Keep your laws off my body! I think I saw it on a pro-choice bumper sticker, but it describes how I feel about the whole family planning issue. If I am the one who does the work of child bearing, then I have ALL the say in how and when and whether. And in answer to your question "are there faithful members of the church who don't feel any contradiction between believing and happily remaining childless?" I am not childless - I have two children - but I feel absolutely no conflict between my reproductive choices and my very orthodox Mormon beliefs. For example, I had my tubes tied after my second child, and I didn't pray about that decision or worry about it or consult my bishop or anything else. I feel that I have the right to make decisions about my own body. Period. This is not a conflict for me and my Mormonism, because I believe that the doctrines of agency, the eternal family unit and the temple, the sanctity of the body, not running faster than we have strength, the parable of the talents, choice and accountability, and many, many other core Mormon beliefs support my particular reproductive decisions. Anyway, these are a few of the things that I've been thinking about after I read your post. I really do wish that we could have a conversation about it. I've never met anyone else who has said the things that you wrote about and that I feel, too. G, I thought about you and this post all day today. I wish that we were next door neighbors, and that we could sit down and talk together about this…because I feel exactly the same way that you do about having children. So many of your phrases were exactly what I think too.

I have two responses to what you wrote in your last paragraph:

“faith and family planning seemed so heavily connected” – I don’t feel this way, because my physical, sexual identity is so personal and precious to me. I have a phrase that runs around in my thoughts regarding this: Keep your laws off my body! I think I saw it on a pro-choice bumper sticker, but it describes how I feel about the whole family planning issue. If I am the one who does the work of child bearing, then I have ALL the say in how and when and whether.

And in answer to your question “are there faithful members of the church who don’t feel any contradiction between believing and happily remaining childless?” I am not childless – I have two children – but I feel absolutely no conflict between my reproductive choices and my very orthodox Mormon beliefs. For example, I had my tubes tied after my second child, and I didn’t pray about that decision or worry about it or consult my bishop or anything else.

I feel that I have the right to make decisions about my own body. Period. This is not a conflict for me and my Mormonism, because I believe that the doctrines of agency, the eternal family unit and the temple, the sanctity of the body, not running faster than we have strength, the parable of the talents, choice and accountability, and many, many other core Mormon beliefs support my particular reproductive decisions.

Anyway, these are a few of the things that I’ve been thinking about after I read your post. I really do wish that we could have a conversation about it. I’ve never met anyone else who has said the things that you wrote about and that I feel, too.

]]> By: D'Arcy http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9256 D'Arcy Sun, 26 Oct 2008 03:44:55 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9256 Great post G. I commented on your blog and probably should have saved it for here. But, in any case. I am so glad I didn't marry or have children before my "spritual awakening" (by the way, I used to call it my spiritual crisis...no more)...not that I am sure I would have them now, being 31 and single, for the first time in a long time, feels so right for me. Great post G. I commented on your blog and probably should have saved it for here. But, in any case. I am so glad I didn’t marry or have children before my “spritual awakening” (by the way, I used to call it my spiritual crisis…no more)…not that I am sure I would have them now, being 31 and single, for the first time in a long time, feels so right for me.

]]> By: G http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9255 G Sun, 26 Oct 2008 01:40:18 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9255 thanks, gladtobeamom, for sharing that. "It is kind of an open ended command that I believe has been interpreted wrong by many." yeah. that sounds about right. I though the church handbook of instructions, under the topic of birth control, states that family planning is between the couple and god, and that others should not judge. but yet it is amazing how much external pressure there is, and assumptions as to what is the 'right' way to do it. thanks, gladtobeamom, for sharing that. “It is kind of an open ended command that I believe has been interpreted wrong by many.”
yeah. that sounds about right.

I though the church handbook of instructions, under the topic of birth control, states that family planning is between the couple and god, and that others should not judge. but yet it is amazing how much external pressure there is, and assumptions as to what is the ‘right’ way to do it.

]]> By: gladtobeamom http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9254 gladtobeamom Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:39:01 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9254 This is an interesting topic because I am really enjoying understanding and respecting others. I am completely the opposite. I always wanted to be a mother. I love it. I am currently prego with number 6 which will be my last. I am not sure that my faith had much to do with it. It may have had a little bit to do but mostly I just love being a mother. I think I would have done it no matter what. I did not do it because I felt obligated to populate or anything like that. I am learning how different it is for everyone. What works for some doesnt work for others. I have met some who should never have had kids and only had them because they felt they had to. On the other hand I have a cousin who feels they need to have as many as possible as quick as possible with out much consideration. He wife is a basket case because they have 6 kids she is pregnant with 7 who has down syndrom and her husband is going to medical school so she does it on her own. She has had a few break downs already. they are also in the military so they are no where near family. It is so important to consider the situation I dont believe he wants us to just think if we just keep having them all will be ok. Not all of us can do everything. It is important to know what we are capable of etc. It is kind of an open ended command that I believe has been interpreted wrong by many. I like the go with your gut thing. This is an interesting topic because I am really enjoying understanding and respecting others. I am completely the opposite. I always wanted to be a mother. I love it. I am currently prego with number 6 which will be my last. I am not sure that my faith had much to do with it. It may have had a little bit to do but mostly I just love being a mother. I think I would have done it no matter what. I did not do it because I felt obligated to populate or anything like that. I am learning how different it is for everyone. What works for some doesnt work for others. I have met some who should never have had kids and only had them because they felt they had to. On the other hand I have a cousin who feels they need to have as many as possible as quick as possible with out much consideration. He wife is a basket case because they have 6 kids she is pregnant with 7 who has down syndrom and her husband is going to medical school so she does it on her own. She has had a few break downs already. they are also in the military so they are no where near family. It is so important to consider the situation I dont believe he wants us to just think if we just keep having them all will be ok. Not all of us can do everything. It is important to know what we are capable of etc. It is kind of an open ended command that I believe has been interpreted wrong by many. I like the go with your gut thing.

]]> By: G http://www.the-exponent.com/2008/10/24/the-intentionally-empty-womb/comment-page-1/#comment-9253 G Sat, 25 Oct 2008 05:43:36 +0000 http://theexponent.wordpress.com/?p=1266#comment-9253 thankyou M&M. I am glad things worked out so well for your family. At times I look at my friends who had their kids while young (early 20s) and now the kids can take care of themselves while mom gets other stuff in... that does seem a lot easier than me, having my first child at 30! I think for a while, I had a bit of DISTRUST in God, a notion that I already knew what God would tell me and it went against my gut instinct etc... I had a friend tell me (concerning God and praying about having children) that God would always tell you to have another child. (!!!) yikes. (She was a bit surprised to have God "tell" her that she WASN'T supposed to have another child.) Now, I am beginning to see the connection between God and my Gut, if that doesn't sound too crass. I know, it's supposed to be in our hearts and our minds that God talks to us... but I think it's through our guts to. And it has been so refreshing to learn to trust my gut! :) thankyou M&M. I am glad things worked out so well for your family. At times I look at my friends who had their kids while young (early 20s) and now the kids can take care of themselves while mom gets other stuff in… that does seem a lot easier than me, having my first child at 30!

I think for a while, I had a bit of DISTRUST in God, a notion that I already knew what God would tell me and it went against my gut instinct etc… I had a friend tell me (concerning God and praying about having children) that God would always tell you to have another child. (!!!) yikes. (She was a bit surprised to have God “tell” her that she WASN’T supposed to have another child.)

Now, I am beginning to see the connection between God and my Gut, if that doesn’t sound too crass. I know, it’s supposed to be in our hearts and our minds that God talks to us… but I think it’s through our guts to. And it has been so refreshing to learn to trust my gut! :)

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