Comments on: Guest Post: Good Dad/Bad Dad: Or A Study in Moral Relativism http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/ Am I Not a Woman and a Sister? Thu, 09 Sep 2010 06:21:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: AS http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13435 AS Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:17:06 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13435 I didn't read all the comments, but it was an insightful post, and I would say that just because a sin isn't concrete or fits into a category, doesn't mean it is any less hurtful. We all have our faults and you're right, just because one person is ex-communicated-especially if he is working to come back, that certainly doesn't make him less than another person whose weaknesses are different, particularly if they are not trying to correct them. I didn’t read all the comments, but it was an insightful post, and I would say that just because a sin isn’t concrete or fits into a category, doesn’t mean it is any less hurtful. We all have our faults and you’re right, just because one person is ex-communicated-especially if he is working to come back, that certainly doesn’t make him less than another person whose weaknesses are different, particularly if they are not trying to correct them.

]]> By: Carol http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13434 Carol Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:10:48 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13434 Great post! It reminds me of the Savior's chastisement of the Pharisees, who feigned righteousness but lack authentic good, and the publicans, whose humility was accepted by God even though society rejected them. My husband never played Church politics nor did he aspire to or want Church leadership, but he's been a bishop, branch president, and bishopric member 4 times. Those experiences were stressful for our family but we also received many blessings. I would have preferred that he taught Sunday School--and so would he. Your post reminds me that many are called but few are chosen. Many good leaders serve with humility and faith but for some, it more an ego trip than an opportunity to serve and love others. My heart goes out to your friend's family and to the father, who is missing out on the joy and peace that the gospel offers. Great post! It reminds me of the Savior’s chastisement of the Pharisees, who feigned righteousness but lack authentic good, and the publicans, whose humility was accepted by God even though society rejected them.

My husband never played Church politics nor did he aspire to or want Church leadership, but he’s been a bishop, branch president, and bishopric member 4 times. Those experiences were stressful for our family but we also received many blessings. I would have preferred that he taught Sunday School–and so would he.

Your post reminds me that many are called but few are chosen. Many good leaders serve with humility and faith but for some, it more an ego trip than an opportunity to serve and love others. My heart goes out to your friend’s family and to the father, who is missing out on the joy and peace that the gospel offers.

]]> By: D'Arcy http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13433 D'Arcy Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:08:49 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13433 I remember growing up and feeling shame that my father NEVER had a big calling. He was never a Bishop or Stake President. He was never the EQ President, he was never anything more than a Home Teacher, he did scouts a few times, he was Sunday School teacher once and liked it. He NEVER complained about any calling, never sought any calling, quietly did each calling he was given. I grew up thinking he must not be as righteous as other people's dads (because he did things like fish on Sundays and watch the occasional rated R movie!). Now I realize he just didn't really play into any type of church politics and he never tried to be anything he wasn't. He went to church every Sunday and then came home and went to the store to buy milk and a newspaper. And I love him for that! I remember growing up and feeling shame that my father NEVER had a big calling. He was never a Bishop or Stake President. He was never the EQ President, he was never anything more than a Home Teacher, he did scouts a few times, he was Sunday School teacher once and liked it. He NEVER complained about any calling, never sought any calling, quietly did each calling he was given.

I grew up thinking he must not be as righteous as other people’s dads (because he did things like fish on Sundays and watch the occasional rated R movie!). Now I realize he just didn’t really play into any type of church politics and he never tried to be anything he wasn’t. He went to church every Sunday and then came home and went to the store to buy milk and a newspaper. And I love him for that!

]]> By: Kelly Ann http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13432 Kelly Ann Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:45:02 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13432 "I love that you prefer your own dad. You should. I also hope that your friend, her mother and her brothers prefer theirs." I totally echo this sentiment. I think what we experience shapes our views. I do however wish that everyone can feel loved in whatever family they are in. “I love that you prefer your own dad. You should. I also hope that your friend, her mother and her brothers prefer theirs.”

I totally echo this sentiment. I think what we experience shapes our views. I do however wish that everyone can feel loved in whatever family they are in.

]]> By: jks http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13431 jks Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:10:50 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13431 Very interesting post. I love that you prefer your own dad. You should. I also hope that your friend, her mother and her brothers prefer theirs. Whether it is mid-life crisis (don't read that as affair) or post-partum depression there are times when we are not at our best. Sometimes we are doing the best we can and our best is less than what our best used to be. What a wonderful experience for you to see that despite your dad's mistakes there is much of him to love. I hope that your friend's dad has measures of goodness that his family sees and remembers and loves him too through what appears to be an unhappy time in his life and he is able to become a better family member. I hope that this story isn't your friend's family's entire story. There is probably much going on behind the scenes. Perhaps if you had visited five years earlier you would have seen an entirely different scene. I hope that if you visit again in the future the obvious unhappiness and stress will have disipated and in its place is joy and contentment. Very interesting post. I love that you prefer your own dad. You should.
I also hope that your friend, her mother and her brothers prefer theirs.
Whether it is mid-life crisis (don’t read that as affair) or post-partum depression there are times when we are not at our best. Sometimes we are doing the best we can and our best is less than what our best used to be.
What a wonderful experience for you to see that despite your dad’s mistakes there is much of him to love. I hope that your friend’s dad has measures of goodness that his family sees and remembers and loves him too through what appears to be an unhappy time in his life and he is able to become a better family member.
I hope that this story isn’t your friend’s family’s entire story. There is probably much going on behind the scenes. Perhaps if you had visited five years earlier you would have seen an entirely different scene. I hope that if you visit again in the future the obvious unhappiness and stress will have disipated and in its place is joy and contentment.

]]> By: julie http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13430 julie Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:55:03 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13430 Such a good post. I have a strained relationship with my dad who sounds so much like the "good mormon dad" in your post (except he has no sons)...I have always wondered what it is like to have the kind of dad you did. You are very lucky. Such a good post. I have a strained relationship with my dad who sounds so much like the “good mormon dad” in your post (except he has no sons)…I have always wondered what it is like to have the kind of dad you did. You are very lucky.

]]> By: Jillian http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13429 Jillian Thu, 29 Oct 2009 06:30:49 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13429 Thanks for the kind words, everyone. This has certainly been an interesting time for my family. I think we're all learning a little bit better what it means exactly to be a disciple of Christ. I especially loved the Nibley quote that DavidH shared--it really is all about the direction we're headed. Anonymous--thank you for sharing your story. I'm really starting to think that it's far less important how exactly a person believes than how they treat everyone around them. Far less. I wish the best for you and your family. James--I readily admit I don't know my friend's father's heart. I do know, however, how my friend has been feeling the past few years about her relationship with him. I'm sure there's much that's good about him--I don't think she'd want anyone to label him a good or bad dad, just as I don't want people labeling my dad. I was mostly interested in looking at these men with their potential labels, and seeing the problems behind these labels. I think too often in our culture we get hung up on certain boundary markers that make us "good" or "bad" Mormons, when our focus should be the first and second most important commandments. Thanks for commenting. Thanks for the kind words, everyone. This has certainly been an interesting time for my family. I think we’re all learning a little bit better what it means exactly to be a disciple of Christ.
I especially loved the Nibley quote that DavidH shared–it really is all about the direction we’re headed.
Anonymous–thank you for sharing your story. I’m really starting to think that it’s far less important how exactly a person believes than how they treat everyone around them. Far less. I wish the best for you and your family.
James–I readily admit I don’t know my friend’s father’s heart. I do know, however, how my friend has been feeling the past few years about her relationship with him. I’m sure there’s much that’s good about him–I don’t think she’d want anyone to label him a good or bad dad, just as I don’t want people labeling my dad. I was mostly interested in looking at these men with their potential labels, and seeing the problems behind these labels. I think too often in our culture we get hung up on certain boundary markers that make us “good” or “bad” Mormons, when our focus should be the first and second most important commandments. Thanks for commenting.

]]> By: Jen G. http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13428 Jen G. Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:52:16 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13428 I enjoyed this Jillian. It seems pretty simple. One man's heart is open, the other's is closed, for whatever reason(s). My dad was actually kind of a mix of the two described above...going back and forth...I was never quite sure which one I was going to get. Now that he is older, he seems to be all heart, and has apologized for harsh treatment in earlier years, explaining that that was how he was raised, and that was all he knew. But he sees how his son in laws treat their wives and daughters, and he is grateful it does not echo his own behavior at that stage. For him to come to such a place is a blessing. I hope your friend's dad could someday get to that point, though he may not in this life, he sounds like one tough cookie. I enjoyed this Jillian.

It seems pretty simple. One man’s heart is open, the other’s is closed, for whatever reason(s). My dad was actually kind of a mix of the two described above…going back and forth…I was never quite sure which one I was going to get. Now that he is older, he seems to be all heart, and has apologized for harsh treatment in earlier years, explaining that that was how he was raised, and that was all he knew. But he sees how his son in laws treat their wives and daughters, and he is grateful it does not echo his own behavior at that stage. For him to come to such a place is a blessing. I hope your friend’s dad could someday get to that point, though he may not in this life, he sounds like one tough cookie.

]]> By: James http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13427 James Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:11:52 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13427 "the thing is, james, that you (and elder oaks in his talk) presume that there is a difference between love and its manifestation. what does it mean to love unconditionally but then to make feeling that love conditional on conformity?" Careful there, presuming what I presume. Feeling of God's love is different than feeling the consequences of our choices. We often do too good a job conflating those two things, but I agree with you - they are separate. I also think Elder Oaks happened to say the same thing (at least based on how I heard it during conference and re-read it tonight before posting my original comment). Just my opinion - you may have interpreted his words differently. “the thing is, james, that you (and elder oaks in his talk) presume that there is a difference between love and its manifestation. what does it mean to love unconditionally but then to make feeling that love conditional on conformity?”

Careful there, presuming what I presume. Feeling of God’s love is different than feeling the consequences of our choices. We often do too good a job conflating those two things, but I agree with you – they are separate. I also think Elder Oaks happened to say the same thing (at least based on how I heard it during conference and re-read it tonight before posting my original comment). Just my opinion – you may have interpreted his words differently.

]]> By: a wanderer http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/10/28/guest-post-good-dadbad-dad-or-a-study-in-moral-relativism/comment-page-1/#comment-13426 a wanderer Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:43:53 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3633#comment-13426 the thing is, james, that you (and elder oaks in his talk) presume that there is a difference between love and its manifestation. what does it mean to love unconditionally but then to make feeling that love conditional on conformity? in my mind, that's a meaningless distinction. either god loves us unconditionally or he does not; the question of obedience to his law is, to my mind, a completely separate matter. are there consequences to disobedience? i suppose there are. but do we as human beings know what they are? i really don't think we do. in fact, i think just about everyone on this planet, including our esteemed church leaders, has no idea what the consequences of obedience and disobedience are. i think the efforts to spell out what the consequences should be, including efforts in scripture and church documents, are efforts of small-minded people who grasp at concrete, black and white answers in order to make sense of a very confusing world. for me, there is one commandment and it is very simple. love. love god. love self. love other. every other commandment is part of a hedge to that central commandment to love. and any talk that gives advice to condition one's love, to qualify how it is manifest--well in my mind, that is a talk which violates god's commandment to love. i appreciate all the comments here about preferring allegedly "sinful" fathers/husbands to the kind of "upright" man represented in this post. and no--i don't think looking at his efforts to fulfill his calling in the church as a manifestation of his love is more sympathetic; that's just whiting the sepulchre. the fact is that if you love someone, you don't treat them like shit. period. nothing makes up for such behavior. the thing is, james, that you (and elder oaks in his talk) presume that there is a difference between love and its manifestation. what does it mean to love unconditionally but then to make feeling that love conditional on conformity? in my mind, that’s a meaningless distinction. either god loves us unconditionally or he does not; the question of obedience to his law is, to my mind, a completely separate matter. are there consequences to disobedience? i suppose there are. but do we as human beings know what they are? i really don’t think we do. in fact, i think just about everyone on this planet, including our esteemed church leaders, has no idea what the consequences of obedience and disobedience are. i think the efforts to spell out what the consequences should be, including efforts in scripture and church documents, are efforts of small-minded people who grasp at concrete, black and white answers in order to make sense of a very confusing world.

for me, there is one commandment and it is very simple. love. love god. love self. love other. every other commandment is part of a hedge to that central commandment to love. and any talk that gives advice to condition one’s love, to qualify how it is manifest–well in my mind, that is a talk which violates god’s commandment to love.

i appreciate all the comments here about preferring allegedly “sinful” fathers/husbands to the kind of “upright” man represented in this post. and no–i don’t think looking at his efforts to fulfill his calling in the church as a manifestation of his love is more sympathetic; that’s just whiting the sepulchre. the fact is that if you love someone, you don’t treat them like shit. period. nothing makes up for such behavior.

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