Comments on: What's a Feminist Mom to Do? Gender Roles and Primary http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/ Am I Not a Woman and a Sister? Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:13:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: AS http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13536 AS Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:10:59 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13536 I think that's overthinking it a bit. I thought the words were quite general. Yes, my husband has the priesthood and he leads in family prayer when he is here, but yes, when he is away, I lead in prayer and do not find it a problem. I also do think it is from the Proclamation and don't have a problem with my kids hearing those words. Of COURSE there are times when I, as a woman, preside in my home and of COURSE there are times when my husband is nurturing. But, to say that men and women are different with different roles in general is not a problem with me. But, I ALWAYS think it's a great idea to talk with my kids about what they've learned in primary or school and how they've understood it and do my own teaching at home. Heaven knows if I didn't do that, my kids wouldn't know half of what they know now. And as a primary leader, I can certainly tell which kids discuss things at home with their parents- AND KUDOS to you parents who do! I think that’s overthinking it a bit. I thought the words were quite general. Yes, my husband has the priesthood and he leads in family prayer when he is here, but yes, when he is away, I lead in prayer and do not find it a problem. I also do think it is from the Proclamation and don’t have a problem with my kids hearing those words. Of COURSE there are times when I, as a woman, preside in my home and of COURSE there are times when my husband is nurturing. But, to say that men and women are different with different roles in general is not a problem with me. But, I ALWAYS think it’s a great idea to talk with my kids about what they’ve learned in primary or school and how they’ve understood it and do my own teaching at home. Heaven knows if I didn’t do that, my kids wouldn’t know half of what they know now. And as a primary leader, I can certainly tell which kids discuss things at home with their parents- AND KUDOS to you parents who do!

]]> By: Racy http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13535 Racy Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:21:06 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13535 sorry for my spelling and lack of clarity, I eman to say that a working mother, to me, is caring and preparing for her children by providing an income for them to live on. A father is teaching how to obey and serve by leading family prayer and finding time to read scriptures, drive kids to seminary, whatever. The problem is where we allow these words to be attached to "ideals" when they can be taken any variety of ways that meet the needs of the children in that room. sorry for my spelling and lack of clarity, I eman to say that a working mother, to me, is caring and preparing for her children by providing an income for them to live on. A father is teaching how to obey and serve by leading family prayer and finding time to read scriptures, drive kids to seminary, whatever. The problem is where we allow these words to be attached to “ideals” when they can be taken any variety of ways that meet the needs of the children in that room.

]]> By: Racy http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13534 Racy Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:14:08 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13534 I've just skimmed these comments, so I may be repeditive, but I am just wondering what the hub bub is about this song? Yes the daddy "presides", but I find the job to "provide" and the job to prepare and care synonomis. The dad needs to love, as does the mom, they both teach. I think that the real problem is not about how traditional roles subjugate women, the real problem is that we do not teach men adequately that preside and serve mean the same thing. I have much less of a problem telling little girls that when they become mothers they will nuture and care for their children than I do implying that when little boys grow up they are expected to be chauvinist windbags. Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I think much of these gender role problems still stem from the fact that we treat feminism as a female problem when it is largely a male problem that needs to be solved with education, such as asking boys in primary "what do you think it means to preside? Does that mean that you get to tell people what to do? Does that mean you get to help others?" I’ve just skimmed these comments, so I may be
repeditive, but I am just wondering what the hub
bub is about this song? Yes the daddy “presides”,
but I find the job to “provide” and the job to prepare and care synonomis. The dad needs to love, as does the mom, they both teach. I think that the real problem is not about how traditional roles subjugate women, the real problem is that we do not teach men adequately that preside and serve mean the same thing. I have much less of a problem telling little girls that when they become mothers they will nuture and care for their children than I do implying that when little boys grow up they are expected to be chauvinist windbags.

Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I think much of these gender role problems still stem from the fact that we treat feminism as a female problem when it is largely a male problem that needs to be solved with education, such as asking boys in primary “what do you think it means to preside? Does that mean that you get to tell people what to do? Does that mean you get to help others?”

]]> By: Caroline http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13533 Caroline Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:51:23 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13533 Ameilia, You said perfectly everything I wanted to say. Thank you! Ziff, good point about preemptive measures. I really really like that idea. A good way to be proactive but not make any leaders feel uncomfortable. Ameilia, You said perfectly everything I wanted to say. Thank you!

Ziff, good point about preemptive measures. I really really like that idea. A good way to be proactive but not make any leaders feel uncomfortable.

]]> By: Caroline http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13532 Caroline Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:48:33 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13532 Moniker, thanks for your comment. That's exactly my sense as well - that for the thousands and thousands of years that most human civilizations were agrarian-based, men and women worked together to provide for the family. And if we look at pre-agrarian times, both men and women were also providing then. The term "hunters and gatherers" makes that clear. Zeta, we are obviously coming from very different places when it comes to gender roles. And that's just fine with me. Diversity within the church is one of the things I like the most to see. My only hope is that we might respect one another, despite differing views. Storonto, good for you! I'm so glad you voiced your opinion to your leaders. I think it's so important for them to be aware of issues like these. I too would have been annoyed by those lyrics, no question. Moniker, thanks for your comment. That’s exactly my sense as well – that for the thousands and thousands of years that most human civilizations were agrarian-based, men and women worked together to provide for the family. And if we look at pre-agrarian times, both men and women were also providing then. The term “hunters and gatherers” makes that clear.

Zeta, we are obviously coming from very different places when it comes to gender roles. And that’s just fine with me. Diversity within the church is one of the things I like the most to see. My only hope is that we might respect one another, despite differing views.

Storonto, good for you! I’m so glad you voiced your opinion to your leaders. I think it’s so important for them to be aware of issues like these. I too would have been annoyed by those lyrics, no question.

]]> By: storonto http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13531 storonto Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:17:26 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13531 I was Primary president in a former ward a couple of years ago when one of the programmed songs included the lyrics, "Home is where there's father with strength and wisdom true. Home is where there's mother and all the children too." The lyrics speak for themselves. I was mortified to read them, and further mortified when an 11-year-old boy's first, spontaneous reaction was "So that means the men are strong and smart, and the women have to stay at home with the kids." I wrote a letter to the General Primary President and the director of Church music expressing how unhelpful to our children I felt these lyrics were. I never had a response from either, but I felt that voicing my opinion was valuable in and of itself. I was Primary president in a former ward a couple of years ago when one of the programmed songs included the lyrics, “Home is where there’s father with strength and wisdom true. Home is where there’s mother and all the children too.”

The lyrics speak for themselves. I was mortified to read them, and further mortified when an 11-year-old boy’s first, spontaneous reaction was “So that means the men are strong and smart, and the women have to stay at home with the kids.”

I wrote a letter to the General Primary President and the director of Church music expressing how unhelpful to our children I felt these lyrics were. I never had a response from either, but I felt that voicing my opinion was valuable in and of itself.

]]> By: Moniker Challenged http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13530 Moniker Challenged Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:01:34 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13530 Zeta, I'm admittedly not a professional anthropologist or historian, but it would seem that the advantage of physical strength and fleetness would decrease somewhat as a culture reaches agrarian status (this was still thousands of years ago in many areas of the world). Women can sew and reap pretty effectively, and they still do so all over the world with or without the aid of machinery or domesticated animals. So, often men and women have worked side-by-side in the fields while children helped or played within eyesight. As civilization progresses, families work together to produce goods for sale: pottery, milled grain, cloth. Even the industrial revolution continued to find multiple family members working in factories or shops while small children were watched by elderly relatives or by neighbors. I think for most of human history making a living has been the effort of a whole family, not the responsibility of an individual. As for the physical differences between sexes, I think many of us would count it progress to live in a society that makes no connection between physical might and civil or familial power. After all, if we as a species depended on our physical attributes for success we wouldn't be around still. Unlike other creatures, our existence lies largely in the mind and soul, and within those arenas there are far more differences between individuals than there are between sexes, I believe. Zeta, I’m admittedly not a professional anthropologist or historian, but it would seem that the advantage of physical strength and fleetness would decrease somewhat as a culture reaches agrarian status (this was still thousands of years ago in many areas of the world). Women can sew and reap pretty effectively, and they still do so all over the world with or without the aid of machinery or domesticated animals. So, often men and women have worked side-by-side in the fields while children helped or played within eyesight. As civilization progresses, families work together to produce goods for sale: pottery, milled grain, cloth. Even the industrial revolution continued to find multiple family members working in factories or shops while small children were watched by elderly relatives or by neighbors. I think for most of human history making a living has been the effort of a whole family, not the responsibility of an individual.
As for the physical differences between sexes, I think many of us would count it progress to live in a society that makes no connection between physical might and civil or familial power. After all, if we as a species depended on our physical attributes for success we wouldn’t be around still. Unlike other creatures, our existence lies largely in the mind and soul, and within those arenas there are far more differences between individuals than there are between sexes, I believe.

]]> By: EmilyCC http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13529 EmilyCC Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:58:43 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13529 Zeta, I really admire that you're taking the time to keep coming back with your thoughts and experiences. They have added to and enhanced this discussion. I hope you'll keep joining us! Zeta, I really admire that you’re taking the time to keep coming back with your thoughts and experiences. They have added to and enhanced this discussion. I hope you’ll keep joining us!

]]> By: Zeta http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13528 Zeta Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:41:13 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13528 I understand better where some of you are coming from. We probably agree more than we realize. To Caroline- Men and women are different. There is no doubt about it. Physically, men are stronger, women are the ones who bear the children. I don't know which primitive cultures you are refering to where the men and women worked mostly together. In the ones I'm familiar with, the women prepared the food and the men hunted it. I don't see gender roles as being cultural at all. Boys and girls are inherently different. I think the gender roles have become more equalized and blurred as a result of our modern technological advances where physical strength is no longer very necessary. It is a modern phenomenon. I think the proclamation when it says that fathers are to preside and mothers nurture helps us get back to our true natures as men and women doing the things that we are more predisposed to do. Presiding doesn't mean unrighteous dominion, we are still working together but we each have our comparative advantage. Fathers can still nurture, but realistically, they are not as soft as we generally are. Working together, I can soften him a bit and he can help me require and expect more of the children than I would otherwise. The way men and women can work together complementing each other with their individual natures is beautiful really. Presiding and having the priesthood also gives men a responsibility of service they might not otherwise do. As women we tend to be more proactive and willing to help and serve, but sometimes the men need a little push. Just look at the difference between Relief society and Elder's Quorum lessons. If they didn't have a specific responsibility, they might be less inclined to do anything. But if there is something only they can do, then they will do it willingly. So I think that having the father preside and provide in the home and the mother mainly nurture is the ideal family situation. Not everyone will be able to do it, of course, but we should all be striving and supporting and teaching that ideal along the way. I understand better where some of you are coming from. We probably agree more than we realize.
To Caroline- Men and women are different. There is no doubt about it. Physically, men are stronger, women are the ones who bear the children. I don’t know which primitive cultures you are refering to where the men and women worked mostly together. In the ones I’m familiar with, the women prepared the food and the men hunted it. I don’t see gender roles as being cultural at all. Boys and girls are inherently different. I think the gender roles have become more equalized and blurred as a result of our modern technological advances where physical strength is no longer very necessary. It is a modern phenomenon. I think the proclamation when it says that fathers are to preside and mothers nurture helps us get back to our true natures as men and women doing the things that we are more predisposed to do. Presiding doesn’t mean unrighteous dominion, we are still working together but we each have our comparative advantage. Fathers can still nurture, but realistically, they are not as soft as we generally are. Working together, I can soften him a bit and he can help me require and expect more of the children than I would otherwise. The way men and women can work together complementing each other with their individual natures is beautiful really. Presiding and having the priesthood also gives men a responsibility of service they might not otherwise do. As women we tend to be more proactive and willing to help and serve, but sometimes the men need a little push. Just look at the difference between Relief society and Elder’s Quorum lessons. If they didn’t have a specific responsibility, they might be less inclined to do anything. But if there is something only they can do, then they will do it willingly. So I think that having the father preside and provide in the home and the mother mainly nurture is the ideal family situation. Not everyone will be able to do it, of course, but we should all be striving and supporting and teaching that ideal along the way.

]]> By: Ziff http://www.the-exponent.com/2009/11/04/whats-a-feminist-mom-to-do-gender-roles-and-primary/comment-page-1/#comment-13527 Ziff Fri, 06 Nov 2009 06:38:22 +0000 http://the-exponent.com/?p=3663#comment-13527 Like several others have mentioned, I just try to talk to my kids at home about troublesome things they might hear in primary. For example, of course this isn't the topic you're addressing here, but one of my kids is really interested in science, and we've discussed evolution quite a bit. I've made it a point to tell him that there are people in the church who will say he's evil for believing in it, but that he doesn't have to listen to them. As far as I know, he hasn't had discussions about it at church, but I'm just hoping he won't be surprised then when he has a teacher tell him that evolution is a doctrine of the devil. I haven't tried this, but I wonder if it wouldn't work to take a similar preemptive strategy for issues of gender roles. Of course it will always be valuable to do damage control after your kids have heard hard line gender role ideas you don't believe in. But maybe discussing egalitarianism with them first (and modeling it), warning them about what they'll inevitably hear, and supplying them with counterarguments in advance might help. Like several others have mentioned, I just try to talk to my kids at home about troublesome things they might hear in primary. For example, of course this isn’t the topic you’re addressing here, but one of my kids is really interested in science, and we’ve discussed evolution quite a bit. I’ve made it a point to tell him that there are people in the church who will say he’s evil for believing in it, but that he doesn’t have to listen to them. As far as I know, he hasn’t had discussions about it at church, but I’m just hoping he won’t be surprised then when he has a teacher tell him that evolution is a doctrine of the devil.

I haven’t tried this, but I wonder if it wouldn’t work to take a similar preemptive strategy for issues of gender roles. Of course it will always be valuable to do damage control after your kids have heard hard line gender role ideas you don’t believe in. But maybe discussing egalitarianism with them first (and modeling it), warning them about what they’ll inevitably hear, and supplying them with counterarguments in advance might help.

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